Blessings,
matt

Also, if idolatry is at the root of all sin, show me one example of dealing with sins in general that identifies it as such? You would think that Paul, e.g. in one of the Corinthian letters, would have said something along those lines. Instead, the only passages referencing idolatry are in the context of food offered to idols (aka. idolatry).

In all this I understand the argument, and see why we would to make this conclusion, but I fail to see the biblical warrant for it. What you find is that mankind is rebellious at heart, and naturally seeks to disobey God. Our wicked hearts are manifest in the multitude of sins we commit. Idolatry isn’t the root sin that gives birth to all other sins. No where does Scripture identify it as such. Many things seem to be at the root of our sins: a general ingratitude for the works God has done for us; a general element of unfaithfulness to God in the way we live; a fear of God that does not lead to humble submission, but terror and running away (ala Mt Sinai); a general distrust of God (like what we see in Adam and Eve, Cain, etc).

Ultimately, James 1 tells us that “desire” is what takes from us from initial temptation to sin. If we want to argue that this giving in to “desire” is idolatry (which we must do if idolatry is the core of all sin), then we need some kind of biblical warrant for it. We don’t find it in James.

Andy

On idolatry and satisfaction

I agree with you that the worship of God by man is a big part of God’s glory – but God’s glory is bigger than our worship. Even if he never created mankind, his glory would still be utmost in the universe. But we need to be careful in talking about “missing the mark.” Romans 3.23, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Our missing the mark is first about not living up to God’s glory before it is about not worshiping him. Though the worship of God is one of our primary tasks as man (Gen 2.15), we also have the responsibility of bearing his image. By sinning, we fail to live up to that image. The resemblance of God in our very nature’s is blemished because of our sin. I see this as something different than worship. The image as a static thing, versus worship as an act. The stain of sin on that image isn’t idolatry, but is part of how we fall short of God’ glory as a race.

In all this, though, I still would like to see Scriptural support for equating worship with seeking satisfaction in something. It seems like they are related in some way, but I don’t think they are the same. If they are the same, wouldn’t we be saying that we worship God to get satisfied? That’s different than “God is most glorified when I am most satisfied in him.” We worship God because he deserves it, and thankfully for us, this leads to our satisfaction. Satisfaction, then, shouldn’t be the motivation of our worship, but it’s result. The motivation is that God deserves it. The blessing is that he satisfies us. Otherwise, would you still worship God if it didn’t satisfy you? You should.

On idols and satisfaction

I agree that God is the only thing that can ultimately satisfy us, and that every good thing we experience is a reminder of his ultimate goodness towards us. That said, the point of praying to an idol in the ancient world (and in some parts of the world today) has nothing to do with satisfaction. It has to do with good fortune, good luck. Baal was not worshiped because he was considered a supreme god, but because he could provide (well, was thought to provide) a prosperous harvest. Farmers wanted good fortune in their harvest, so they prayed to Baal. You asked, “Why else worship the creature? He is seeking some satisfaction or pleasure?” Well, no. He is seeking good fortune. It had nothing to do with pleasure, but with good crops.

What the Bible calls the worship of God is something completely different. It really does involve satisfaction, because the worship of Yhwh involves an all-encompassing, life-humbling, trust in the one who created the world, sustains it, and sent his Son to redeem it. The worship of idols is a temporary thing. It is not life-encompassing, but is a single act of devotion to a supposed entity who can get me something. I don’t know how else to stress the difference between the two. We do not worship God to get something from him, some good luck, but because he deserves it. Sure, he may in some way help us to see him (or think about him) in clearer ways, but I don’t worship in order to do get that, or because I think I’m going to get that. I worship because he deserves it, even if I never see (or understand) him any clearer than I did today. What he has done for me is already plenty enough.

To incorporate my earlier thoughts, we would be worshiping Yhwh like we would worship an idol if our motivation for worship were satisfaction in our beings. That is vastly different than worshiping him because he is supreme, and as a by-product of that worship we are lucky enough to be satisfied.

On defining idolatry

You said, “I don’t think that “what the Bible calls idolatry” is limited to what activities it expressly uses the term with.” I don’t think I’m committed Carson’s word-idea fallacy here. Certainly idolatry is at least what activities the Bible expressly uses the term with. What I’m arguing is that in virtually every case, even in Ezekiel, idolatry is associated with the creation of false images of Yhwh, or of the worship of gods (so-called gods) using idols. Unless we have biblical justification for extending “idolatry” beyond this usage, we better be careful.

The way you want to use the word “idolatry” (“all sin [is] a form of spiritual idolatry, or heart-idolatry”) is really stretching the word, considering how it is used in the Bible. This is what I meant in the earlier post by equivocating in how we use the term “idolatry”. Just call sin what it is sin, and start to trust God with your life. I often wonder if evangelical Christians in, say, India, use “idolatry” in the same way you are describing. There, they actually have to compete with a religion which uses idols ritually (Hinduism). Here, the lack of idols (in large part due to the Judeo-Christian influence of the West) may make us think differently about how the Bible uses the term.

Andy

My question to you is, where does Scripture define idolatry as “seeking satisfaction (in some form) from something other than him”?

I’ll try to explain.

A fundamental conviction of mine is that life is about worship. I believe that because I believe that the reason that God created the world and the reason for all His acts of providence is that He be glorified (Is 42:8; 43:7, 25; 48:11; Ezek 36:22-23; Eph 1:11-12); that is, loved with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. I think that’s just another way of saying “worship.”

And so humans are created to be worshiping creatures. And since life is designed that God might be worshiped as He deserves, ultimately all our sin is “missing the mark” of that particular purpose. So when Paul talks about man’s fundamental and total depravity notwithstanding God’s common grace, he talks about the exchange of worship of God for other things (Rom 1:18ff).

Their idolatry has turned into full-blown worship of those idols, not merely as instruments to get what they want, but as if they were Yhwh.

See, I don’t think there’s a difference there. Let me try to explain step by step. A fundamental assumption of mine is that [1] every human being desires to be happy, to be satisfied, to “get what they want,” if you please. I also believe that that desire is a good one, one that was created in us by God. I believe that [2] God Himself is the only thing in life that can satisfy that fundamental human longing to be satisfied (cf. Is 43:7). And so because [3] Yahweh is what all human beings most fundamentally want, [Conclusion] whenever they act as if something else is what will satisfy them, they are “worship[ing] those idols…as if they were Yahweh.”

I don’t think I’m committing idolatry when after a long hot day of cutting the grass I come inside and am greatly satisfied with a nice cold glass of ice water. I’ll be sure to thank God for it, though.

I don’t think that’s idolatry either. God gives us all things to enjoy (1Tim 6:17) and to receive with thanksgiving (1Tim 4:4). However, all of those good and perfect gifts that He does give (Jas 1:17) come with a purpose: to point us to the Giver, and cause us to rejoice in Him above His gifts, which is exactly what you say you do when you mention that you will thank God for it.

So being satisfied in God’s gifts is not necessarily idolatry, but I do think it could be. Piper writes this in God is the Gospel, p. 143: “All the enticements to God that are not God are precious and precarious. They can lead us to God or lure us to themselves. They may be food or marriage or church or miracles. All of these blessings bring love letters from God. But unless we stress continually that God Himself is the gospel, people will fall in love with the mailman — whether his name is forgiveness of sins or eternal life or heaven or ministry or miracles or family or food.” Or a drink of water, or justice, or compassion.

Another question: hasn’t God already given all of himself to us? What more could God give us then the blessings he has already poured upon us in Christ?

Right. I was speaking figuratively. What I mean is, things like opening our eyes to more clearly behold His glory (2Cor 3:18), His lifting up His countenance upon us (Num 6:26ff), His satisfying us in the morning with His lovingkindness (Ps 50:14).

…in what way does my worship of God necessitate (or even obligate) God to give more of himself to me? What does it even mean for this to happen?

I wouldn’t say ‘necessitate’ and certainly not ‘obligate.’ What I mean is, for example… take 2Cor 3:18. There, we learn that our increasing conformity to Christlikeness is a function of our beholding His glory. The more we behold, the more we are changed “from glory to glory,” or as another translation puts it, “from one degree of glory to the next.” One way that God has designed the universe to work is that the more we obey Him, the more we see of Him. So, when I am worshiping in Spirit and truth, I “get” more of God than I would if I was outright sinning. And all I mean by that is I see Him more clearly, and therefore am blessed by beholding the beauty of His glory (cf. Ps 27:4).

Am I worshiping to get something out of it, or out of appreciation for who God is, what he has done, and what he promises to do?

I don’t think those are separate things. I think God is honored by people who go after Him and pursue Him with all their might, looking to be blessed by seeing more of His loveliness in obedience. As long as what I am seeking to “get out of” worship is God Himself, I am glorifying and honoring God. I develop this thought more fully in this post. I link to it here just so I won’t take up more room.

Does God even promise to give more of himself to us because we worship him?

I think so. I think that’s what all the promises of reward are for seeking and worshiping God. We are to love our enemies in order to be sons of the Most High, our Father in Heaven (Lk 6:27-36). We are to be good stewards, looking forward to the reward of “entering into the joy of our Master” (Mt 25:21). Psalm 36 says that Yahweh gives His people to drink of the river of His delights. He blesses those who walk in His way with delight, with joy in Him.

A few more notes to ponder. First, in Romans 1.25, the worship of the creature is not equated with the seeking after of pleasure...

Your point about the progression is taken, though I won’t reproduce it here. But I’m surprised that you dichotomize “the worship of the creature” and “the seeking after of pleasure.” Why else would natural man worship the creature? He is seeking some sort of pleasure or satisfaction?

Second, what do we do with a religion like Islam? Are all Muslims idolatrous?

Yes.

They would expressly tell you that idolatry is forbidden and they are to worship Allah alone.

I’m sure they would. But yes, as the Allah of the Qur’an is not the God of the Bible, they are failing to worship God as He’s commanded, and instead worship a god of their own making. That’s idolatry.

Or, what do we do with atheists? Are all atheists idolatrous? They would tell you that they do not worship anything.

Yes, I would say all atheists are idolatrous. They may tell me that they don’t worship anything, but they do. In many cases they worship themselves, but certainly an atheist’s gods are more than self. Here’s what I mean, again. Because God has created a world in which His aim is to be glorified, worship is at the heart of all of life. We are created to worship. And we are created to worship the one true God. Yet, because of our spiritual blindness, we substitute other things around which we shape our lives and from which we seek to benefit. That’s treating something else like — or allowing something else to occupy the role of — God. And that is “idolatry of the heart,” if you will.

We seem to equivocate on what we mean by idolatry.

Yes, that is where the disagreement seems to be: the definition of idolatry.

What I’m asking us to do in my blog is really investigate what the Bible calls idolatry, and what it doesn’t.

I think that’s a noble ambition, yet I don’t think that “what the Bible calls idolatry” is limited to what activities it expressly uses the term with. That’s Carson’s word-idea fallacy. I think that Scripture teaches what I’ve presented above about worship being at the center of life, and thus a theology of worship and idolatry yields the conclusion that the Bible does, in a less direct way, call all sin a form of spiritual idolatry, or heart-idolatry.

The root issue is trust in the living God, not idolatry.

Again, I would say that there isn’t a difference there. Failure to trust in the living God means that one is trusting in something else for sustenance, satisfaction, etc. And that is idolatry.

Well, I hope that was in some degree beneficial. Thanks for your time.

Thank you for your comments. Your input will certainly move this conversation forward. Somehow that Ezekiel passage slipped my mind, and I’ve given it some thought. On a quick reading, as you mentioned, what seems to be happening is that the leaders in Israel have been worshiping real, physical idols (Isaiah 40-50 style). Their idolatry has turned into full-blown worship of those idols, not merely as instruments to get what they want, but as if they were Yhwh. I’m reminded here of the Golden Calf incident, where the Israelites under Aaron’s direction were attempting to worship Yhwh as if he were an idol. In essence, the leaders in Ezekiel leaders are treasuring up the god of their idols in their hearts, instead of treasuring up Yhwh. And then they are going to Yhwh’s prophet, not hear from Yhwh as the supreme love of their heart, but as another god among many. So, we are dealing with men and ritual worship of idols, with Yhwh included as one of those gods.

My question to you is, where does Scripture define idolatry as “seeking satisfaction (in some form) from something other than him”? For example, I don’t think I’m committing idolatry when after a long hot day of cutting the grass I come inside and am greatly satisfied with a nice cold glass of ice water. I’ll be sure to thank God for it, though. Ultimately, my life’s satisfaction must come from Yhwh. But it seems to be one thing to talk about ultimate satisfaction on one hand, and the satisfaction one gets in a cold glass of water, or seeing justice come to fruition, or a true act of compassion, in the other.

Another question: hasn’t God already given all of himself to us? What more could God give us then the blessings he has already poured upon us in Christ? Yes, we long for our ultimate day of salvation, and we hope in the promise of the glorious inheritance that awaits us when Christ returns and consummates his kingdom – but in what way does my worship of God necessitate (or even obligate) God to give more of himself to me? What does it even mean for this to happen? Am I worshiping to get something out of it, or out of appreciation for who God is, what he has done, and what he promises to do? Does God even promise to give more of himself to us because we worship him?

A few more notes to ponder. First, in Romans 1.25, the worship of the creature is not equated with the seeking after of pleasure, nor is it the exchange of natural sexual relations for unnatural. Rather, the physical idolatrous worship of creatures (ie. the Golden Calf, or the worship of Caesar as God) results in these other sins. In other words, physical idolatry opened the door, and seems to ultimately lead, to other grievous sins. So, adultery is adultery, impurity is impurity, and idolatry is idolatry.

Second, what do we do with a religion like Islam? Are all Muslims idolatrous? They would expressly tell you that idolatry is forbidden and they are to worship Allah alone. Is their worship of Allah idolatry? Or, could it just be that their worship of Allah is wrong (incorrect)? Or, what do we do with atheists? Are all atheists idolatrous? They would tell you that they do not worship anything. If they don’t worship anything, they can’t be committing idolatry. Surely, they can be committing a multitude of other sins, but idolatry isn’t one of them.

We seem to equivocate on what we mean by idolatry. What I’m asking us to do in my blog is really investigate what the Bible calls idolatry, and what it doesn’t. I’d suggest that rather than calling “seeking satisfaction (in some form) from something other than him” idolatry, we should treat it like Jeremiah 2:13, “My people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.” The root issue is trust in the living God, not idolatry.

Andy

I came to you blog via Jonathan Parnell’s Reading to Walk, and was interested in this post on idolatry. When you say, “The Bible ALWAYS defines idols as physical objects…” with the possible exception of Colossians 3:5, it makes me wonder what you think of Ezekiel 14:1-8, where God tells Ezekiel that the men of Israel “have set up idols in their hearts” (Ezek 14:3).

Certainly these men have set up physical idols as well, but Yahweh seems to take offense at the adultery they have committed in their heart (cf. Ezek 6:9). It seems to me that His diagnosis of their problem is that they are seeking satisfaction (in some form) from something that is other than Him. And so when I say, for example, the following concerning counseling a brother who has confessed to adultery, I am getting at the root of all sin being the exchange of the worship of the Creator for the creature (Rom 1:25):

I would labor to show him that the issue is ultimately one of idolatry, and that he must forsake the worship of the idols of sexual pleasure, stimulation, and acceptance, and return to worship the one true God in Christ Jesus. These exhortations must be laced with pleas to behold the objective beauty of Christ, because no change of allegiance will occur unless Jim’s heart delights in Jesus more than he delights in sin.

Also, I think we should worship Yahweh to get something in return: more of Him. I think that’s essential to worship: shaping your entire life around benefiting from the abundance of a gracious God, who is magnified and glorified when He gives more of Himself to satisfy dependent human beings (cf., for example, Ps 50:15; 90:14). And the reason why I would call all sins a form of idolatry — like sex, greed, etc. — is because they all involve the exchange of worship and service. No longer are they glorifying God by shaping their lives to benefit from what He can give (i.e., Himself), but they are shaping their lives to benefit from the faux-pleasures of sin. They are worshiping their desire for sex, or for money, or for prestige, etc.

And so to answer your original question, I would say that when Paul talks about “idolatry” in Galatians 5 he’s referring to the physical aspect of idolatry, whereas one can also be talking about “spiritual idolatry,” or, as God says in Ezekiel, idolatry of the heart.

He reminds me a lot of Bart Ehrman. You are reading along thinking, “I don’t disagree so far” and then he says something that causes you to question how he concluded what he concluded. The biggest logical fallacy I see with him is sometimes his conclusions just don’t follow.